U.S. author: China's staggering changes deserve respect

This year, 2024, marks the 75th anniversary of the founding of the People’s Republic of China and also the 45th anniversary of the establishment of the China-U.S. diplomatic ties. In the past few decades, China-U.S. relations have undergone ups and downs, but people-to-people exchanges have always been of crucial importance for the two nations. 

Today, we are going to talk with Dr. Terry Lautz, the author of “Americans in China: Encounters with the People’s Republic” to take a closer look at his stories about China-U.S. people-to-people exchanges and hear his insights on major country diplomacy between the world’s two largest economies.

Host:      Xiong Maoling,
                   Xinhua Correspondent
Guest:    Terry Lautz, 
                   Former Vice President of the Henry Luce Foundation
                   Author of "Americans in China: Encounters with the People's Republic"

Transcript

Opening Remarks:

Xiong:

Welcome to this edition of China Trends! This is Xiong Maoling in Washington DC. This year, 2024, marks the 75th anniversary of the founding of the People’s Republic of China and also the 45th anniversary of the establishment of the China-U.S. diplomatic ties. In the past few decades, China-U.S. relations have undergone ups and downs, but people-to-people exchanges have always been of crucial importance for the two nations. 

 
Today, I am going to talk with Dr. Terry Lautz, the author of “Americans in China: Encounters with the People’s Republic” to take a closer look at his stories about China-U.S. people-to-people exchanges and hear his insights on major country diplomacy between the world’s two largest economies.

Xiong: Thank you, Mr. Lautz, for talking with us. Firstly, we know that you wrote this book about China, it's called “Americans in China: Encounters with the People's Republic”. And in the book, you mentioned that you first set foot on China in 1978. And can you share with us some of your first impressions?
 

Lautz: Yes. Well, thank you for this opportunity and this is my book. And the cover, if I could say a word about that, it’s very very interesting, I think because the picture of Zhou Enlai meeting with a group of American students in 1957. In 1957, Americans were not allowed to visit communist China. It was off limits. And so these students were invited, when they were attending a youth festival in Moscow, to come to Beijing.
 

And so and the U.S. State Department said don't go. It's illegal. And about 45 of them decided, yes, we will go, we want to see China. And so they traveled in China for about five weeks. And I think they had very good experiences. But here they are with a Premier Zhou singing an American folk song called “Ain't Gonna Study War No More.” And so I love this cover.
 

Xiong: It kind of symbolizes the good relations between the two countries, even before the establishment of diplomatic ties.

Lautz: So even when there was Cold War, even when Americans were not allowed to go to China, there was people-to-people contact. And it was very limited, but it was a sign of hope for the future. 
 

I was not able to go to China myself until 1978, as you say. And it was a remarkable experience because there was so much curiosity on the part of the Americans and the Chinese, we both wanted to learn about each other. But we knew so little. And at that time, you know, it was not long after the Cultural Revolution and Chinese were still not willing to be very open about the past. And so we've learned a lot since then.
 

Xiong: So at that time, what was not the same as you expected in 1978 when you first visited China?
 

Lautz: Everything was new to me. So I didn't have I tried not to have too many expectations, because I think when we have expectations, one way or the other, positive or negative, that can be a problem. You know, then we can be disappointed. But one of the most memorable things about my first trip was at the very end, our last day, a small group of Americans, went out to a commune, a commune outside of Guangzhou.
 

And while we were at the commune, I left the meeting to listen to this radio broadcast. I learned the normalization of diplomatic relations between China and the U.S. as of January 1st (1979). It would be two weeks after we were there.
 

So I went back into the meeting and I told our Chinese hosts about this news, and I didn't know what to expect, hat would be their reaction? But they were so excited. They were so pleased. And so that really was a lesson to me about the importance of this individual encounters.
 

Xiong: Yeah, you had the individual encounter, but at the same time, you were witnessing something very historical.
 

Lautz: Right. So this individual encounters always take place within the structure of the government relations, so that's always important to keep in mind. But it's also so critical to remember that even when government-to-government relations are not good as they are right now. People-to-people relations are usually a very different story. More positive. Yeah.
 

Xiong: So you have been to China for many times during the past few decades. Is there any other thing that you would like to share with us, some very unforgettable moments or some interesting stories?
 

Lautz: Well, one of my most memorable experiences was also a few years after China opened up in the early 1980s. And my wife and I, with a few young American teachers, were climbing up a very steep mountain called Wudang Mountain. It's a Taoist mountain historically in the northwest of Hubei Province. Maybe you know about it. And as we were climbing up this very very steep mountain, very arduous climb. We saw a younger man carrying his mother on his back. Two things struck me about this. One is his mother had bound feet and so she could not walk up this mountain. And it was a reminder of the repression of Chinese women in the old China. But I was also struck by the fact that this young man was willing and able to carry his mother up, which was an expression of his love and his loyalty to his family.
 

Xiong: Well, that's a very memorable image. And so you said you've traveled to Hubei and also Hunan provinces, and some different places in China. Is there any particular city or a place that you like the most about China?
 

Lautz: Oh, there's so many. And I have enjoyed, you know, eating all kinds of Chinese food, especially Xiaolongbao. I love Xiaolongbao from Shanghai. Right? And if you or your viewers had the chance, you must go to the Suzhou Museum, designed by the Chinese American architect I.M. Pei. It's just beautiful. But also the town of Lijiang in Yunnan Province is absolutely wonderful. There are many places in China I have not been to which I would like I'd like to see.
 

Xiong: Is there any Chinese art or culture or history aspect of that you like or anything that you.
 

Lautz: I am fascinated with archeology in China, because even in smaller cities of China, for example, the city of, not Suzhou, but Xuzhou up in the north, they have marvelous museums. One museum is whole stone and other has jade, jade princes and princesses. And the extent, you know, the amount of archaeological evidence that is still being dug up, you know, even today is absolutely astounding.
 

Xiong: So you just mentioned 1978. That's a very important year for China because we launched the Reform and Opening-up Policy at that time. And after decades of development, of course, China has achieved tremendous economic development and other areas of development. Right now, China has entered a new phase of high-quality opening-up. Can you share some thoughts on different stages of development in terms of China's opening up policy?
 

Lautz: Right. Well, in the 1980s, when the opening up started, everybody was an explorer. Everybody was discovering and learning. And one of the chapters in my book is about a couple named Jerry and Joan Cohen. And Jerry Cohen helped to introduce Western law in China. But as an individual and his wife, Joan, was a specialist in modern western art. And so she found young Chinese artists who were very very interested in this subject. But it was all largely individual effort. 
 

And on the Chinese side, there was tremendous curiosity about the outside world, about the United States in particular. But the purpose in coming to the United States for most Chinese, I think, at that time, was to develop the skills and the expertise to go back to China and help China to rebuild and help China to become more prosperous and become a strong country. And this is in the light of the fact that China had suffered so much from war and civil war over a long period of time. 
 

So when we get to the more recent period, I think largely after China's accession to the WTO and 2001, you see different motives. Chinese students are coming not just to build China because China's already built. China has become very successful in many ways, but they're seeking more opportunities for individual advancement for their individual careers when they go back. And they're more opportunities now in China. 
 

So in terms of education, higher education with the Hopkins Nanjing Program in Nanjing, with the joint NYU Shanghai Venture in Shanghai with Duke Kunshan. And this programs are still doing quite well.
 

Xiong: So you mentioned that China today, there are different stages of development. And right now today is definitely different than the China that you first went to in 1978. And there are many aspects of development. Aside from economic success, is there any other areas of development that strike you the most?
 

Lautz: Well, again, I would go back to the way in which people have, you know, there's an argument in the United States that the policy of U.S. engagement with China was a bad idea. Because look what happened, China became strong. And, you know, China is, according to some American politicians, you know, more aggressive. And Americans made a terrible mistake to support this policy. And I think that idea is simplistic and wrongheaded. I think the whole issue of engagement, the whole idea is so much more complicated. So we had engagement at many levels. And it wasn't just the United States that helped China through investment or through education, but many other countries also assisted China. But more important or the most important is the fact that the Chinese people themselves developed China, they changed China. So there is longstanding legacy on the American side that comes out of the missionary movement. Missionaries did many good things in terms of education, medical care and so forth. 
 

Xiong: So as you mentioned, that China this year actually marks the 75th anniversary of the founding of the People's Republic of China. As an American that understands China so well, how do you view the changes over the past few years, especially since the launch of the Reform and Opening-up Policy in the 1978?
 

Lautz: Well, I think it's really more for the Chinese people to, you know, to say, because, as the Chinese people say, when I spend time in China, I'm looking at flowers from horseback. You know, I have studied China and U.S.-China relations for many years, but it's not the same as being in China. That's not the same as being a Chinese person.
 

So I think outsiders like myself, we have to be humble. We have to be modest about make an assessment of of China after 75 years, we all know that the change has been absolutely staggering. It's been tremendous.
 

Xiong: And so for U.S.-China relations, people-to-people exchanges are very important. And you have written a lot of individual stories in your book. And how do you think the two countries should boost people-to-people exchanges in what areas or in what fields do you think specifically?
 

Lautz: Right. Well, I think on the U.S. side, to improve people-to-people relations, which are absolutely crucial and are very extensive. You know, the fact that you and I are sitting here having this conversation is evidence of that. But I think on the U.S. side, our politicians need to reduce, and people in general, American people need to be much less, in fact, no discrimination, and racism and attacks on Chinese American people and Asian Americans that there's been too much of that. So that's absolutely wrong and we need to fix that.
 

On the Chinese side, I think to improve people-to-people, we need much greater access, and actually on both sides, much greater access for foreign journalists. The numbers of journalists from China in the U.S. have shrunk. And same thing in China. So we have many American journalists now who want to write about China, but they have to do so from (Chinese) Taipei or from Seoul, or elsewhere. And so they cannot provide the American public with a complete picture, with a full picture of Chinese society. And so they only concentrate on the latest headlines and on the leadership and what the leadership says. So we're missing a lot there. So one of the chapters again in my book is about a young Chinese American journalist who went to China and opened the Newsweek bureau. And it was Melinda Leo. And she opened Newsweek in 1970 or 1980, I think it was, in Beijing. And so she was one of the first American journalists to be able to report on daily life in China. So we need much more of that. 
 

Xiong: You mentioned there is some of the racist rhetoric or maybe people who view Chinese or Chinese Americans negatively in recent years. Right now, do you feel like this country is having this environment where there is like bipartisan support to take a tough stance against China? And why do you think that is happening?
 

Lautz: Right. Good. Good question. A very very basic, important question. I think, first of all, we should keep in mind that for at least 35 years after diplomatic relations were established and even before that, after Nixon's trip to China, U.S.-China relations were positive and there was a consensus among Republicans and Democrats that engagement with China was a good thing.
 

So that consensus has broken down. I think largely it has to do with the rise of China's power. China has its own policies and China feels has the ability to extend its power. And so both sides have very very different views.
 

So I think it's both strategic, but then the other part of it, of course, is economic. What about chapters, again, if I could mention the book is about a Chinese American woman named Shirley Young, and she went to China. She was actually born in Shanghai but came to the United States when she was quite young. She went to work for GM, General Motors, big automobile company. And because of her Chinese background, she played an instrumental role in helping GM to enter the China market. It was very, very successful and still making money.
 

Xiong: I actually talked with Shirley in 2015. She was in Beijing at that time. Yeah. And she was in her 80s, but still look very elegant and healthy and everything energetic but is so sad that I think.
 

Lautz: You know, she passed away just a few years ago. But, you know, she was she played a critical role not only with American business, but also in cultural exchange. She brought many Americans, dancers, musicians to China and many Chinese artists to the United States.
 

Xiong: She was doing the cultural exchange in her later years.
 

Lautz: Exactly. Very active.
 

Xiong: So right now, there are some people who think about U.S.-China relations. They think China as a rival, and then others say that the two countries should be partners. I wonder, what is your take on this? Should we be rivals or should we be partners?
 

Lautz: Well, we have to accept the reality that we are both. We are both rivals and partners. Right now, the rival gets more attention. But we have to realize that there are so many ways in which our countries are interconnected. We have still, I think, the largest number of foreign students, international students in the United States come from PRC. And it's about 300,000, I believe, even after the pandemic, so not as high as it was, but still significant. And it's not just student exchange, it's so many levels of society in terms of business and culture and NGOs and so on and so forth. And it's a difficult environment. But we never I think it's important to keep in mind we never had these kinds of interconnections with the Soviet Union during the Cold War. There are minimal exchange, minimal, very very little in the way of institutional relationships. 
 

So I think it's a very bad mistake to talk about the U.S.-China relationship as being a new Cold War. What we need is to embrace the idea of competitive coexistence, figure out ways where we have common ground, realizing that we do have differences, and try to work on those differences, try to resolve them without conflict.
 

Xiong: So you said it's important to take a look at things in a historic view, because that would give us more context. So in 1972, former President Nixon paid a historic visit to China. And then a few years later, the two countries formally established diplomatic ties. And from your view, during the past 45 years, how do you comment on the bilateral relations? I know it's a long period of time, but can you talk about what can we learn from the 45 years of diplomatic relations?
 

Lautz: Well, we've learned that both sides have very different visions of the future, and both sides have very different purposes in establishing diplomatic relations.
 

China is an equal. And I think that best presents many opportunities, particularly for joint research in science, in agriculture. It's very difficult to have a joint programs in space, but I think one are wonderful if we could. And so I think we need to look for these opportunities, realizing that China now has the capacity to be a good partner on many many issues. 
 

At the same time, as I said before, realizing that there will always be tensions, you know, there will always be disagreements, there will always be problems that are difficult to resolve. 
 

But I guess more than anything else, I hope that the political rhetoric on both sides can be less. As you know, we need to dial down the heat. You know, there's too much political rhetoric. And, you know, the idea that China is an existential threat, you know, a fundamental threat to the United States is very disturbing. And and it really leads in, I think, a very dangerous direction to think of it in those terms.
 

Xiong: So you said China-U.S. relations have witnessed their ups and downs in the past few decades. What does that tell us for future? You think we always look at the diplomatic ties, it's not going to be smooth all the time, but do you still feel optimistic for the future?
 

Lautz: I do. And in the long term, yeah. And you know, again, if you look at the history, even modern history from a Cold War on or even much earlier, you see these cycles. You see these ups and downs, these periods of optimism and pessimism. And I think that because our relationship is so deep on the human level, there are so many interconnections that we can be optimistic about overcoming the difficulties.
 

I would also go back to the people-to-people issue, and I think it's very important to note that Americans who have lived and worked in China, or even if they've had a short visit, they tend to be more realistic about China. People have not had an experience often fall into the trap of being either to, you know, see China as evil or China as being perfect, you know, either romantic China or China as devil, a demon.
 

And so we need to think about and we need to make sure that our perceptions and our images are accurate. Images and perceptions are very volatile. They can change very quickly. And they're typically, you know, for large countries like ours, they're very superficial. You know, they don't go too deep, but they also come in pairs, both positive and negative.
 

And so, again, I think if you look at the history, we can be optimistic about the long term.
 

Xiong: As so well said. So this year is the presidential election year for the United States and right now the race is very tight. No matter who gets in the White House, do you have any suggestions for the new administration in terms of its China policy?
 

Lautz: Well, I would repeat what I just said about dialing down the rhetoric. You know, we need to be more realistic about this relationship and realistic about the difficulties, the problems strategically, economically, but at the same time understand the value, the value of the relationship. And as I said, also, we need to seek areas of common ground, especially on the question of climate change, which is a global problem.
 

But given the size of China and the United States, you know, these two countries have to work together. And China has made a lot of progress in terms of electric vehicles, for example, or solar panels. And the United States is also making progress. This is a perfect area for cooperation. And and we need much more of that. I also hope that the new administration would provide more opportunities for American students to go to China.
 

Xiong: So lastly, the United States and China are the two largest economies right now in the world. And why do you think the two should manage their differences properly? Why does it matter for the whole world?
 

Lautz: Now you just look at the stock market. You look at the headlines in Wall Street Journal or Bloomberg and so forth. So we know that the Chinese economy matters, not just to the United States and the US economy, but globally and to the entire world. And so that's another example of how we need to have a more balanced and well-rounded understanding and to realize that as I say, competitive coexistence is possible and something that we can achieve.
 

Xiong: So thank you, Mr. Lautz, for talking with us. It's a great pleasure for hosting you.
 

Lautz: Well, thank you. It's a great pleasure for me to be with you.